Encyclopedia talk:Main Page

Main Page | talk | Archive 1 (August) | Archive 2 (September)

Schools

Nice to see the varied "schools," but where's the school of business? Legend78 14:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Unlock the Main page

Greetings all! I think we need to make the Main page more immediately visually accessible - in other words, what Wikiversity is and what you can do there. I'm not such a whizz at Mediawiki design, so I'd appreciate any help in making a better page layout. I can then help with adding and creating links.. Cormaggio 12:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC) eering... why is it the only school there and why isn't it pointing to Portal:Engineering and Technology? Damien Black 23:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, It might of been because of the main page switch over, though if not, there probably is a good reason for it. Math also has a school on the main page.--Rayc 03:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Main Page picture

This new picture on the Main Page is certainly looking better than the previous one, and it associates on school and learning more efficiently, but its big problem is that there are no people in it at all. And since this aspect is very important, if I had to choose between them, I'd choose the old happy corridor instead of this sad abandoned lonely classroom. The old picture reflects the Wikiversity's openness and community way better than this looking-good, but wrong-message-sending one. --George D. Bozovic ^talk 23:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see, the pictures are changing daily. Good idea! --George D. Bozovic ^talk 01:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

An empty lecture hall isn't very wiki-ish, in my view, but I understand what "beta" means and will be back to see the steady improvements. Thanks for all the efforts. | Gardner Campbell 18:02 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Main Page: New Design

Nice design. Congratulations to the designers. User:205.189.97.202/Sig

Yes, thank you very much to Trevor MacInnis and David Levy for their talented and extensive work in creating and refining the new main page design. Thank you also to everyone who shared input and comments. :) --Reswik 01:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Motto for Wikipedia?

"Help create a motto and a slogan for Wikipedia." It should be Wikiversity, shouldn't it? –Dilaudid 21:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the hint, I've changed it. How embarrassing...-- sebmol ^? 21:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

That makes me laugh. <chuckle> 205.189.97.202 02:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk archive

Done talk needes to be deleted or archived to give focus to current talk. Archiving done talk for a month on a separate page provides users a place to check up on done talk they initiated, more graceful than deleting directly. If you can improve this, please do. Ideas? Thanks! :-) Rogerhc 04:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by this. Most of the time I just make a page like Wikiversity talk:Main Page/Archive 1 and place all of the non-current talk on there. You shouldn't ever completely delete anything. --Mateo 18:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll see if I can write a bot to auto archive the talk page, or better yet, find a bot that's already been written. --Draicone ^(talk) 23:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

w:User:Werdnabot might be useful, operated by w:User:Werdna – 86.138.33.165 22:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

If somebody is willing to give me approval and operate as a liason, then I can activate Werdnabot here. Werdna 09:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Currrently I'm the only person authorised to give bot status on Wikiversity - the only unfortunate thing is that, when it comes to all things technical, I haven't a clue :-). But you could liaise with User:Sebmol (who, as far as I know, is working on a similar bot). Cormaggio 10:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

relation to wikipedia?

Does participation in this project require participation in wikipedia? I don't support wikipedia for a variety of reasons, but would like to edit here. What is the nature of the relationship between the two, beyond that they are owned by the same people. thanks. --Mateo 18:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, a number of editors here, including myself also edit Wikipedia, so that's a definite connection. Also, many policies, and indeed articles are adapated from Wikipedia as the project gets started. This project requires no participation in Wikipedia, so you shouldn't have to worry about that.--digital_me 01:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

UC Berkeley offers courses and symposia through Google Video

UC Berkeley offers courses and symposia through Google Video. Should each Wikiversity course link to the relevant videos, if any are available? --DavidCary 05:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why not. We encourage the use of learning materials, including those which cannot (due to technical or legal restrictions) be offered directly through Wikiversity. I'm not sure how many videos we'll actually have, however. --Draicone ^(talk) 09:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

General layout suggestions

I would like to suggest the following:
I think Wikiversity should, as a general layout devide in accordence to the following hierarchy : ( the arrows are directed from high to low hierarchy.) general schools(e.g chemistry, psychology --> more specific schools(analytical chemistry or developmental psychology) --> courses --> lectures . Under that hierarchy I think each lesson/lecture page should have side pages (like "edit this page" and "discussion" ) in which a Q&A page from actual students and proffesors would be held. I'm only suggesting a discussion on "the general layout" and not making a pinpointed suggestion. If there is already a discussion on General layout somewhere then I'm truly sorry for I did not find it anywhere. in that case, please move my suggestions to the right place. --(User: Eshy, Israel - unregisterd Wikimediaist.)

---

A way of using "schools" was developed during the period of time that Wikiversity existed at Wikibooks (see b:Wikiversity:Wikiversity Schools). In that system, one school does not contain other schools. The curent system for a hierarchy of academic subjects is described at Wikiversity:Namespaces and Wikiversity:Naming conventions.

"each lesson/lecture page should have side pages (like "edit this page" and "discussion" ) in which a Q&A page from actual students and proffesors would be held" <-- I agree that Wikiversity needs to find good ways to promote discussions, question and answer sessions, debate, etc among participants. It is easy to make links to subpages that can hold discussions. Hopefully the wiki software will be improved so as to provide additional features such as threaded discussions that are easily searchable. --JWSchmidt 22:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

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Where are announcements about Content?

Good News! The first Motion Picture Storyboard has been created for the WikiU Film School's short movie called Seduced by the Dark Side!

Where do I tell people about it? All the news and announcement pages that I can find are only about the site itself, not about the new and great lessons inside. Robert Elliott 16:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

That's great! I've added it to the featured content of Portal:Media for now. There's no place as of yet to make general announcements about content (apart from Wikiversity:Colloquium) - though I've also been trying to get Wikiversity:Examples going as an indication of the breadth of various types and levels of content on Wikiversity - it could be added there too (in an appropriate - ie probably new - section). Nice one! Cormaggio 16:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

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Major problem!

Coming to this front page, no one understands (certainly not immediately) what the hell this wiki is for/about!? I still don't really get it!

The Main Page needs to state CLEARLY AND SUCCINTYLY exactly what this wiki is about: what kind of information is in the Main namespace. --131.111.8.98 02:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC) (w:User:Alfakim)

You might be able to help make the main page more user friendly by helping at User:Morley/Sandbox. --JWSchmidt 04:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

i think that wiki is a great source of help for all persons (Unsigned comment by User:216.240.107.1 14:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC))

What about Wiki tutors?

For students learning to write, what about Wiki tutors to give pointers and praise. Pointers could be to subject areas / writing advice subheadings the tutors may be familiar with, but the new learning students might not.--68.4.98.20 01:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Wikiversity needs its own version of Writing Across the Curriculum. The basic unit of writing in a wiki is the page edit and everything we write is subject to correction by others. There could also be a more formal system in which Wikiversity participants could be encouraged to write essays that would be moved to subpages and subjected to corrections by "tutors" and re-writes by the student. --JWSchmidt 02:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

A Friendly Observation

There have been comments on the Main Page being inadequate to describe what this wiki is/does. I'd like to second these comments and provide a couple observations. There are two groups of people on this wiki, those from the original project at Wikibooks, and those who have joined since the split. I am noting a severe disconnect bewteen these groups regarding the impression of what the wiki is/does. I've noted, for example, that any attempt to mention "online courses" or anything thereto related has met with polite opposition from the old hands. The statement is that courses belong in Wikibooks, whereas learning projects belong here. I feel that this can be explained, in part, by the ambiguity and confusion with which the Wikiversity mission statement is articulated. The other major part of the problem is the name. Who would imagine that courses, not simply books, should be on Wikibooks? Who would imagine that courses should not be on Wikiversity? If the mission of this wiki is to do other than provide courses and learning materials and curricula, its name ought to be changed. I will keep doing what I am doing. I forsee that, unless something is done to hone the message being given to newbs, the newer members of this commuunity will think more and more like me and less and less like the originators of this site had intended. Part of it is the genuine lack of direction (save the polite requests to "stop it and go to Wikibooks"), and the issue of nomenclature. If the previous culture is fine with mission creep and a change of focus, just leave things as they are. If the old guard wants to preserve the mission statement, it would be best to elucidate it clearly, and change the name of this wiki.--Dnjkirk 07:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Please provide links to examples of, "the statement is that courses belong in Wikibooks". "Who would imagine that courses should not be on Wikiversity?" <-- In November 2005 the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees rejected the first Wikiversity project proposal and instructed the Wikiversity community to modify the proposal to "exclude online-courses". As far as I can tell, the Board was encouraging the Wikiversity community to think about learning activities that are suited for the wiki user interface rather than try to cram conventional course structures into wiki pages. Wiki technology facilitates online collaborative authoring of webpages. An interesting question is: can the Wikiversity community discover new, non-traditional structures for "wiki-courses" that build on the power of collaborative learning? About the name of this wiki.....why should it be changed? --JWSchmidt 04:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

"any type of material on here in Wikiversity which could (or should) belong in a book belongs on Wikibooks, including book-style self-teaching courses." (User_talk:Dnjkirk), "The one thing I think we want to avoid are self-teaching courses. These are the sort which are found in Wikibooks and belong in Wikibooks." (School_talk:History). As for the question of changing the name, that is not the statement I made. It was to either tighten the definition of what is done here, or change the name to discourage people from imagining this to be a place that is for University-style learning. Basically, if it isn't for courses and university-style learning, should it be called Wikiversity? And if it is, and this is all just a misunderstanding... then perhaps the Main Page should be rendered more clear? Where I work right now, education is very inaccessible to the bulk of the citizens and when it can be paid for it is not of the highest quality. My hope for Wikiversity is that it will be useful in spreading more accessible and free learning materials to people who live in places like this. I've been developing whatever pages I've been developing with this in mind, and in the hopes communities would form around these pages to create a more community-style approach to learning. In this, I feel I'm embracing the mission statement at least in spirit if not in nomenclature. What seems to be the problem is that my misuse (reinterpretation?) of your nomenclature seems to have sparked some belief that it shouldn't be here.--Dnjkirk 15:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikibooks is the place for all textbooks that meet the requirements of that project, in particular, "A textbook is a book which is actually usable in an existing class." Wikiversity is a place that is open to other types of learning materials that do not fit the definition of a Wikibooks textbook. In addition, Wikiversity encourages participants to form Learning groups and engage in collaborative learning activities here at the Wikiversity website. In other words, Wikiversity is not just a collection of static learning materials for use at conventional educational institutions. I think we need to get creative with respect to the relationship between Wikiversity and Wikibooks. I think a good habit for Wikiversity participants is to be aware of what Wikibooks textbooks exist. Wikiversity participants should make use of Wikibooks textbooks and participate in the creation and improvement of Wikibooks textbooks. Participants in Wikiversity learning projects should be encouraged to develop Wikibooks textbooks; working to improve a textbook is a great way to learn. As for the name issue, it is true that many people will see the word "wikiversity" and think, "hmm, that must mean it is a university like other universities I am familiar with." The Wikiversity project proposal says, "What Wikiversity is not: A place to confer titles, A degree-granting institution, A library, A university." When the Wikiversity project website was launched, there were some people who thought they could re-write the proposal and make the claim that Wikiversity is a university. This made it very difficult to provide a coherent description of the project for new participants. In my view, a good starting point would be to encourage Wikiversity participants to actually read the approved project proposal. This might be a good time to re-do the main page to provide a clearer description of the project. There are similar on-going efforts at pages such as Wikiversity:Welcome, newcomers. --JWSchmidt 16:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

There will continue to be contention on this issue, as there is more than adequate volition but inadequate definition. I read the documents you are pointing to above, I read them a while ago. An examination of what I've been putting together at Strategic Studies should allay any fears you have of my acting contrary to the Mission Statement. For example, I have been starting up Wikibooks textbooks for use in (and development by) students at the School of Strategic Studies. Courses are geared to learning around a Project that typically involves the creation, critique, or editing of Wikimedia articles. What is not settled is definition, and you are perfectly right in the assessment that the Main Page needs a re-vamp. I understand this is a beta, as Cormaggio mentioned, but the mission should be as clear as the light of day on the front page or there may be further confusion. Better to act sooner rather than later.--Dnjkirk 17:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input Dnjkirk. I'm firstly disappointed you perceive some sort of split between "old hands" and newbies - that's absolutely not the way it should be - nor how I perceive it. I think the issues you outline, however, are down to the fact that Wikiversity has had such a long (and often painful) birth. The issue of "courses" is, as John points out, down to the original rejection of the proposal by the board in November 2005 - based, in part, on a nervousness about "online courses". However, this matter is still unresolved, in my eyes at least, and I think I will take it upon myself to respark this discussion within the whole Wikimedia community to see if we can find any clarity as to the exact reasoning behind the original rejection. (On second thoughts, I think I might leave it a week, seeing as the board are currently on a retreat in Frankfurt.) Overall, on the identity of the project and your work within it, I think it is perfectly ok to continue as you are, and to try to feed back to the wider community about what you are finding about your pedagogical style as you go. That's a key ingredient towards becoming a meta-learning community about learning - one of my personal goals for Wikiversity. :-) But I think there's absolutely no point in having to change the name - we are a community of teachers and learners in the classical sense of the word "universitas" - though we are defining ourselves as we go along. Cormaggio 10:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC) I should also note that we are in "beta phase" - in which the proposal that we put together over the last year is to be consolidated. I would urge that we work within that (very broad) format - which should not prevent you from working as you are doing - so that, if we have presented a sustainable project base at the six month mark, we should become a fully-fledged Wikimedia project. Cormaggio 10:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Cormaggio, your comments have always been positive and encouraging and a testament to your patience. I also believe you understood my use of a rhetorical device to discuss the issue of definition rather than the silly suggestion of name changes for the site. I don't have much time in the day, but I do spend a lot of my spare time thinking, writing, and developing ideas for Wikiversity. I've become quite passionate. It's easy to be so when you see how much something like this is needed. Thanks for the understanding.--Dnjkirk 15:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

• Suggestion: Research monograph <math> \in </math> wikiversity; Textbook <math> \in </math> wikibook.--Hillgentleman 11:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
• rough work sheets<math> \in </math> wikiversity; research paper <math> \in </math> Established Journals for the moment, <math> \in </math> wikiversity ultimately; Schaum outline <math>\in</math> wikibook or wikipaedia--Hillgentleman 11:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I lecture part time at a local college. At present I am entering post-graduate material, but I have found that my (undergraduate) students don't take notes and rarely read their textbooks.

• Wikiversity is an ideal place to put a synopsys of lectures.
• It has an advantage over conventional textbooks in that it can be updated immediately.
• Academia is not accessable to all and I personally believe in the widest possible distribution of knowlege. If my notes help a student at a correspondent university, I would welcome that.
• It will allow shy students to ask questions anonomously.
• It allows Q & A sessions outside of class - particularly in study week when students are panicking.
• I am intending to use it as a resource for real life teaching at a recognised college.
• If it is not policy to promote recognised university courses, then I really believe that the policy should be reviewed to take cogniscence of these issues. If not, what is the point?
• If I am at the wrong place, then does the Wiki system have a home for what I want to do?
• In the mean time, I think it is a wonderful home, and fuly intend to continue to "lecture" here until I am told otherwise. Andrew massyn 03:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

"promote recognised university courses" <-- I have no idea what you mean by "promote". You are welcome to add content to Wikiversity that comes from conventional courses as long as that content can be placed under the GFDL. "does the Wiki system have a home for what I want to do?" <-- If your educational content is in the form of a textbook then it should be placed in Wikibooks. Most other educational content is welcome here at Wikiversity. --JWSchmidt 04:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• See also:Computer Architecture Lab------Hillgentleman|User talk:hillgentleman 10:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Newest Additions

• What about something like a "Newest Additions" section on the main page? It could show a newly founded school, department, course (whichever was founded latest). mehmetaergun 16:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

That would be nice, perhaps. Something like Wikipedia's "newest articles"? The Jade Knight 02:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

There's always Special:Newpages. I was thinking this could be done somehow automatically (possibly even from Recent changes), just as it is done on many user-created sites. If someone was to write that script and implement it, I would have no problem with that. The only thing for me would be - isn't newest pages likely to show educational material in barely sketched stage, rather than other pages/materials which are more developed? (This is what I set up Wikiversity:Examples to show, btw.) But perhaps this could be done cleverly - so I'll leave it to the clever technical people to figure out. ;-) Cormaggio 11:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

That's why wikipedia has featured articles. There could be featured schools/departments/courses. 80.167.94.145 20:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Other languages

Should people start building Wikiversity in other languages? AQu01rius (User | Talk | Websites)  21:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You need to make a request for a Wikiversity in another language. Also, you can use this site to start making Wikiversity pages for another language. --JWSchmidt 00:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikiversity already exists in some other languages. Are you looking for a specific language? The Jade Knight 05:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the Main Page should include a list of Wikiversity in other languages similar to some of the other Wikis. Talonhawk 22:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Look down near the bottom, "Wikiversity in other languages". --JWSchmidt 22:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I just saw that and realized my mistake. So then this question seems to be well answered. Talonhawk 18:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"where teachers learn, and learners teach"

Cringe... sounds like Wikiversity is embracing the worst criticisms of Wikipedia, where history is determined by who can stick at an edit war the longest. 128.250.37.103 02:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, seven slogans are rotated currently, one for each day of the week, in the subtitle at the top of the main page. These are based on on suggestions made in a previous round of the motto and slogan contest. When this round is finished, those selections will be changed to the final selection(s). (Btw, based on greater support for other options in the last round, my guess is the "where teachers learn..." option probably won't be a final selection.) Please feel free to comment and select options in the motto and slogan contest. :) --Reswik 02:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Create and host free content, multimedia learning materials, resources, and curricula for all age groups in all languages

Oh great, but how I can host my free website on wikiversity?

Well, Wikiversity isn't about "hosting your free website", but you're free to upload or develop your resources on Wikiversity. You might find this page at Wikiversity:Adding content useful, or perhaps on Wikiversity:Welcome, newcomers. Cheers! Cormaggio 20:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You might find wikia.com (formerly wikicities) useful in hosting a free web site if you meet their criteria. Mirwin 05:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Add School of Business

I think the wikiversity should include the school of business.

• Portal:Professions>School:business

Wik Bullies, Thugs and Ferals

Howcome the Australian editors with the help of some offshore admins are being totally rude and ignorant to new editors and claiming they are using 'sockpuppets' when I had to look up what that was, and am not etc?

Registered user 'Gretaw' has been blocked along with my block when Gretaw is totally absolutely nil to do with me. The admins who did this are either Gretaw or they have attacked a totally not involved reg wik user.

Whatever, the go at me on wikipedia has been pretty disgusting and bad form wik that you allow this bully stuff to happen on your site. Check out that Gretaw stuff and what Thatcher131, Golden Wattle, Longhair/Durova, and any other whinney ones - oh I forgot the pompous Sarah Uhart. There was the spree slope Grahame something also.

Bad show wik. Poor form and disgusting org. Template:Unsigned

Um, there isn't any user Gretaw... Are you sure that this didn't happen in wikipedia?--Rayc 19:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify Rayc's comment: the administrators on wikiversity aren't the same people as the administrators on wikiversity (or wikibooks, commons, etc.). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 21:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, presume Johnny means that the admins on Wikiversity aren't the same as those on Wikipedia ... :-) Cormaggio ^talk 10:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Protection

Can we get an admin to please move-protect the Main Page? No reason for anyone but an admin to ever move it, and having that move tab up there makes it rather prone to be put on wheels. (Btw, "move=autoconfirmed" protection does nothing, since non-autoconfirmeds can't move pages any way.) AmiDaniel (talk)

Done - thanks for the heads up, and help. :-) Cormaggio ^talk 10:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Modifications to the main page

It is time again to discuss redesign of the main page. Two proposed (at freenode #wikiversity-en) ideas for the redesign are:

• Most visitors to the Wikiversity main page are new to wiki and need help to understand what is going on at Wikiversity. The main page needs to be a resource for these new visitors.
• It is time to have featured content on the main page with good examples that show what Wikiversity is about.

You can help at Wikiversity:Main page design changes. --JWSchmidt 17:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Interdepartmental Linking

If there is a better place to do this, please tell me and I'll move it elsewhere.

It seems to me that Wikiversity can profit by using a lot of interdepartmental linking. Many of the engineering, math, and science departments will share material, especially when it comes to introductory material. It seems to me, that it would be best to not repeat this material over and over in each individual department, but have all of the departments link to the one page, and then add their own supplements as necessary. For example, instead of having the Math, Physics, and Engineering departments each have their own page on how to take a cross product, instead have one page (say in the math department), that the other departments can then link to as a lesson. The more people that see a page, the more edits it will get, and the better overall it will become. Howeman 18:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Feel free to place this reminder on every "School:" and Topic:" content development project page: "Learning materials and learning projects can be used by multiple departments. Cooperate with other departments that use the same learning resource." (source) --JWSchmidt 18:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Multidimensional

One thing has bugged me for a while... how are we a "multidimensional social organization"? How exactly does that work?--Rayc 00:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it is trying to reflect the fundamental role of collaborative webpage editing in a wiki website. We collaborate on many "levels"; in editing individual lessons, working on content development projects in the "School:" and "Topic:" namespaces, at the level of Wikiversity-wide planning and policy and at the level of integrating Wikiversity with other projects. --JWSchmidt 00:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Browse link too small?

File:BrowseSize.png

Click on the image to see the full sized image.

well i think that the lik to get to the course content and browse the subject schhols etc is way too small. it needs to be bigger and more centeral in my opinion Tigerboyce 20:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking about the link that is in the left hand navigation side-bar or one of the links that is on the main page? --JWSchmidt 13:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

on the main page under the welcome area Tigerboyce 20:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I made the text of that section of the main page larger (see image to the right). --JWSchmidt 20:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

yep looks loads clearer. good job

Division of Culinary Arts

Hey, I'm starting to work on a division here, and wondered if anyone would like to help. Thanks! Blast 15,01,07 2246 (UTC -5)

Question about log-in

I was just wondering..is a wikipedia account the same as a wikiversity account? Are they interchangeable?Please call me cupy.71.143.188.187 03:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

No, you have to create a new account here. You can use the same username that you have at Wikipedia. --JWSchmidt 03:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks71.143.188.187 03:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)