Editing Encyclopedia:Colloquium/archives/December 2006 (section)

== Java in wikiversity prevents pages loading into frames? ==

Hello,
Seems wikiversity has a Java script preventing pages from loading into frames in other websites. I want to load wikiversity pages into a frame based system used at our school, it is (unfortunately) the Blackboard learning management system. Thinking of an alternative way to display gathered resources and media in a single context, I tried to load a wikiversity page into a start page service called protopage.com - no joy. The wikiversity page takes over the window and won't allow the browser back button to return to the previous URL (because that's page attempting to display the Wikiversity page) we have a loop. 

Personally I think this is a serious flaw in Wikiversity that will prevent take up in many educational settings who - for various reasons - insist on using an LMS. Could you remove the code so I can present pages in these contexts? or can you suggest a way to hold a Wikiversity page in a frame without it insisting on taking the whole window over? --[[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 08:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

:Uf! You're right in thinking that this is prevented - it's not considered to be a good idea at all. It has been trialled in one instance - a collaboration this year in Denmark between the Danish Wikipedia and the public service radio broadcaster there - where a Danish Wikipedian wrote a MediaWiki skin which could be edited from within the frame of the Radio station's website. This was an experiment in many ways, and we are awaiting feedback on how it has progressed - but let me just say that there was ''considerable'' hostility to the idea, particularly from Brion Vibber (the lead Wikimedia developer). However, you're always free to use the *content* of any Wikimedia site under the GFDL free licence - you'll just need to format it according to your own or the software's desires/specifications. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]</small></sup> 13:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

::The considerable hostility you mention concerns me. Especially if all it amounts to is Wikimedia 'brand' purity. Where else does this inflexibility and defensiveness exist? If it is a technical issue then I'd be less concerned, and hopeful that a fix is on its way. Given the obvious trend in 'web2' type services to enable and even encourage 'mashups' (embedding Youtube videos as a small example) I think Wikimedia might be add odds with general expectations. I am going to have a hard time convincing as many teachers as I might have convinced if its perceived that Wikimedia is not as flexible to use as other information services. Thanks for the headsup though Cormaggio.. --[[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 10:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

:::The Wikimedia Foundation has been in a constant struggle to have enough money to pay for bandwidth and servers. It is not reasonable to expect the Foundation to serve webpage content to other websites. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

::::It could be about cost, it could be about branding - I'm not entirely sure what the crux of the matter is (though both have been mentioned as factors, certainly). It might be something that is worth bringing up on the [http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Foundation-l] mailing list, or maybe it's better for [http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l wikitech-l] - if you are prepared to do so, you could give it a try and see how people react... [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]</small></sup> 21:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Hi JW. I'm not sure how this script helps Wikimedia in terms of servers. We would be drawing on those servers either way - whether we loaded into a frame, or opened it in a new window. The reason some people like to load pages into frames is because we often work with people who have never used the Internet before (or rarely have) and can get confused with multi window browsing. Why some teachers prefer using an LMS I'm not sure.. similar reasons to do with simplicity of use (?). Hopefully over time, we will develop more networked literacy in our teachers and community, and multi window (or tab) browsing won't be a problem.
:::::Camaggio - Maybe I will take it up in there, or if you could point me to the history of the discussion, That'd help if I'm about to wade into a turf war. Personally, I wish it wasn't an issue. I wish we didn't use an LMS and I wish more people were web savey.. but I I wish more, for many teachers to get involved in Wikiversity and other MediaWiki projects. If this stops them for now, I think that would be a shame. --[[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 22:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I honestly can't recall any discussion on the Foundation-l list about this subject (and I don't follow wikitech-l) - the discussion I referred to before was on a group cc: email about the aforementioned Danish collaboration (which you can see [[w:da:Wikipedia:DR-sport?useskin=drsport|here]]). As to preventing teachers from getting involved, that would indeed be a shame if we were doing that, but I can't see how this issue is preventing teachers from participating, rather than simply from using Wikiversity content ''in this particular way''. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]</small></sup> 13:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

::::There are many websites that take content from Wikipedia and try to use it to attract advertising revenue. I doubt if there is any combination of factors that will get the Wikimedia Foundation to pay the costs associated with serving up Wikipedia content into frames on pages of such websites. It might be possible to have a "whitelist" of approved websites that would be permitted to directly use content from Wikimedia servers, but I doubt if anyone at the Foundation wants to head down that path if it involves screening thousands of individual websites used by teachers. I think the answer would probably be a flat "no" if it involved serving Wikipedia content into pages associated with any kind of proprietary software package like BlackBoard. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 15:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)